Comments on: Ajax, Java, and a huge misunderstanding http://blog.webreakstuff.com/2006/05/ajax-java-and-a-huge-misunderstanding/ A blog on entrepreneurship, user experience, and web innovation. Published by Fred Oliveira. Tue, 13 Dec 2011 18:19:07 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3 By: Scott http://blog.webreakstuff.com/2006/05/ajax-java-and-a-huge-misunderstanding/comment-page-1/#comment-29061 Scott Fri, 09 Mar 2007 19:21:13 +0000 http://blog.webreakstuff.com/2006/05/ajax-java-and-a-huge-misunderstanding/#comment-29061 I haven't worked with Java on the web for over a year (which I know is forever in the tech world), but it certainly would be far down my list for rapid and innovative web UI development (except possibly scalability would be my only real reason to ever choose Java). Java seems better for data-manipulation or intricate calculations that don't usually go on in the interface. It also seems to have an obscene amount of plumbing in the way of XML files which don't generally default to useful values. It also doesn't seem to particularly follow the DRY (Don't Repeat Yourself) philosophy which I find annoying after using a more DRY framework such as Rails. I wonder if Tim's point about "Ajax envy" wasn't so much comparing Java to Ajax. Perhaps he was comparing Java's ease-of-Ajax and interface creation to one of the other frameworks (like Rails) and its ease-of-Ajax. Unless Java has changed significantly, I imagine getting Ajax going involves quite a bit of manual tweaking and headaches to do something that other frameworks are making simple. Something like Rails comes with the Prototype libraries already there and well integrated. If you've designed your application according to the way that is simplest for you (using DRY and partials) then adding Ajax is astoundingly trivial in most cases. I always felt as though the encouraged way to do things in Java was somewhat at odds with the simplest way to get it done with interfaces. Something like Rails, on the other hand, aligns the encouraged way with the simplest way. It's quite a pleasant experience not to have to fight against the simplest way in order to do things "the correct way" for once. Frankly, I hope Java developers do feel "Ajax Envy" since maybe it means they'll try to fix some of the problems with Java. It's a free market and if all Java can offer is scalability on the back end and extra complexity, then they deserve to be woken up and get their butt spanked by newer, easier and more flexible technologies. I haven’t worked with Java on the web for over a year (which I know is forever in the tech world), but it certainly would be far down my list for rapid and innovative web UI development (except possibly scalability would be my only real reason to ever choose Java). Java seems better for data-manipulation or intricate calculations that don’t usually go on in the interface. It also seems to have an obscene amount of plumbing in the way of XML files which don’t generally default to useful values. It also doesn’t seem to particularly follow the DRY (Don’t Repeat Yourself) philosophy which I find annoying after using a more DRY framework such as Rails.

I wonder if Tim’s point about “Ajax envy” wasn’t so much comparing Java to Ajax. Perhaps he was comparing Java’s ease-of-Ajax and interface creation to one of the other frameworks (like Rails) and its ease-of-Ajax.

Unless Java has changed significantly, I imagine getting Ajax going involves quite a bit of manual tweaking and headaches to do something that other frameworks are making simple.

Something like Rails comes with the Prototype libraries already there and well integrated. If you’ve designed your application according to the way that is simplest for you (using DRY and partials) then adding Ajax is astoundingly trivial in most cases.

I always felt as though the encouraged way to do things in Java was somewhat at odds with the simplest way to get it done with interfaces. Something like Rails, on the other hand, aligns the encouraged way with the simplest way. It’s quite a pleasant experience not to have to fight against the simplest way in order to do things “the correct way” for once.

Frankly, I hope Java developers do feel “Ajax Envy” since maybe it means they’ll try to fix some of the problems with Java. It’s a free market and if all Java can offer is scalability on the back end and extra complexity, then they deserve to be woken up and get their butt spanked by newer, easier and more flexible technologies.

]]> By: Paul Browne - Technology in Plain English http://blog.webreakstuff.com/2006/05/ajax-java-and-a-huge-misunderstanding/comment-page-1/#comment-3230 Paul Browne - Technology in Plain English Sat, 22 Jul 2006 22:17:24 +0000 http://blog.webreakstuff.com/2006/05/ajax-java-and-a-huge-misunderstanding/#comment-3230 Speaking as a Java Developer: Java on the Serverside = good Java on the client side = why bother, when there are better alernatives available. IMHO, Ajax and Flash beat Java Applets hands down for Web User interface. Speaking as a Java Developer:
Java on the Serverside = good
Java on the client side = why bother, when there are better alernatives available.

IMHO, Ajax and Flash beat Java Applets hands down for Web User interface.

]]> By: Rik Lomas http://blog.webreakstuff.com/2006/05/ajax-java-and-a-huge-misunderstanding/comment-page-1/#comment-2098 Rik Lomas Mon, 29 May 2006 17:58:19 +0000 http://blog.webreakstuff.com/2006/05/ajax-java-and-a-huge-misunderstanding/#comment-2098 I can't see how Ajax and Java would be directly competing with each other. People seem to forget that Ajax and Javascript isn't just a magic pill - it can't do *everything* well, especially when it comes to movement, and isn't meant to compete with things like Java. I can, however, see how Flash and Java would compete directly. I would prefer using something that doesn't completely slow down my machine. Java, on the client-side, seems to be going the way of soon-to-be-dead Shockwave, especially now with upcoming powerful but light technologies such as Flex. I can’t see how Ajax and Java would be directly competing with each other. People seem to forget that Ajax and Javascript isn’t just a magic pill – it can’t do *everything* well, especially when it comes to movement, and isn’t meant to compete with things like Java.

I can, however, see how Flash and Java would compete directly. I would prefer using something that doesn’t completely slow down my machine. Java, on the client-side, seems to be going the way of soon-to-be-dead Shockwave, especially now with upcoming powerful but light technologies such as Flex.

]]> By: Fred http://blog.webreakstuff.com/2006/05/ajax-java-and-a-huge-misunderstanding/comment-page-1/#comment-2018 Fred Fri, 26 May 2006 00:13:31 +0000 http://blog.webreakstuff.com/2006/05/ajax-java-and-a-huge-misunderstanding/#comment-2018 This post was specifically against Tim O'Reilly and friends for comparing Ajax and Java. This being said, it either doesn't say much about your english abilities, or my writing skills. However, since my second paragraph reads "The two can't be compared for several reasons", I'm betting on the latter. This post was specifically against Tim O’Reilly and friends for comparing Ajax and Java. This being said, it either doesn’t say much about your english abilities, or my writing skills. However, since my second paragraph reads “The two can’t be compared for several reasons”, I’m betting on the latter.

]]> By: H http://blog.webreakstuff.com/2006/05/ajax-java-and-a-huge-misunderstanding/comment-page-1/#comment-2016 H Fri, 26 May 2006 00:08:29 +0000 http://blog.webreakstuff.com/2006/05/ajax-java-and-a-huge-misunderstanding/#comment-2016 @Alex Hutton In my experience, C#/.Net guys wear dresses, worship Bill Gates pictures, blow up bridges etc. But I can't offer any proof. People are talking about the time of Java as a web platform is gone. When Java is moving strongly into desktop apps (in the enterprise). Its a start. Get off your Kool aid guys. And Fred, how can you compare Java and AJAX. Do you even know the first thing about programming. Your post is so wrong that I don't even know where to begin. Noone has to move from Flex etc. to Java. In fact Java is moving in with Adobe offering strong support for Java. As far as Rails goes, I won't trust Rails to run multi-million dollar business websites. What with the scaling issues and all. I like Ruby as much as the next guy but the libraries, scalability is just not there. Its good for small proof-of-concept like things, but for heavy lifting, Java would be a better bet. @Alex Hutton
In my experience, C#/.Net guys wear dresses, worship Bill Gates pictures, blow up bridges etc. But I can’t offer any proof.

People are talking about the time of Java as a web platform is gone. When Java is moving strongly into desktop apps (in the enterprise). Its a start. Get off your Kool aid guys.

And Fred, how can you compare Java and AJAX. Do you even know the first thing about programming. Your post is so wrong that I don’t even know where to begin.

Noone has to move from Flex etc. to Java. In fact Java is moving in with Adobe offering strong support for Java. As far as Rails goes, I won’t trust Rails to run multi-million dollar business websites. What with the scaling issues and all. I like Ruby as much as the next guy but the libraries, scalability is just not there. Its good for small proof-of-concept like things, but for heavy lifting, Java would be a better bet.

]]> By: Ken http://blog.webreakstuff.com/2006/05/ajax-java-and-a-huge-misunderstanding/comment-page-1/#comment-2013 Ken Thu, 25 May 2006 21:01:39 +0000 http://blog.webreakstuff.com/2006/05/ajax-java-and-a-huge-misunderstanding/#comment-2013 "Why should anyone change from Rails+Ajax (or anything else+Ajax), Flex or anything else to Java? What does it really have to offer that we haven’t seen before?" For an answer to this question, go to the link below. http://code.google.com/webtoolkit/ “Why should anyone change from Rails+Ajax (or anything else+Ajax), Flex or anything else to Java? What does it really have to offer that we haven’t seen before?”

For an answer to this question, go to the link below.

http://code.google.com/webtoolkit/

]]> By: Fred http://blog.webreakstuff.com/2006/05/ajax-java-and-a-huge-misunderstanding/comment-page-1/#comment-2010 Fred Thu, 25 May 2006 18:19:02 +0000 http://blog.webreakstuff.com/2006/05/ajax-java-and-a-huge-misunderstanding/#comment-2010 Go back and read the whole article. Particularly, the bottom paragraph. Go back and read the whole article. Particularly, the bottom paragraph.

]]> By: google/ebay http://blog.webreakstuff.com/2006/05/ajax-java-and-a-huge-misunderstanding/comment-page-1/#comment-2009 google/ebay Thu, 25 May 2006 18:17:25 +0000 http://blog.webreakstuff.com/2006/05/ajax-java-and-a-huge-misunderstanding/#comment-2009 someone should've told us, since many of our major webapps are java based. so much wide-sweeping statements filled with FUD it's not worth commenting on. someone should’ve told us, since many of our major webapps are java based. so much wide-sweeping statements filled with FUD it’s not worth commenting on.

]]> By: Fred http://blog.webreakstuff.com/2006/05/ajax-java-and-a-huge-misunderstanding/comment-page-1/#comment-2006 Fred Thu, 25 May 2006 16:13:55 +0000 http://blog.webreakstuff.com/2006/05/ajax-java-and-a-huge-misunderstanding/#comment-2006 In the post I didn't highlight (maybe I should have) that I don't mean web applications based around JWS or server-side Java technologies, but applications that use Java as its presentation layer, which is what Tim O'Reilly's post talks about. That being said, I don't disagree with you at all - there is space for java, just not the way Tim mentions it. In the post I didn’t highlight (maybe I should have) that I don’t mean web applications based around JWS or server-side Java technologies, but applications that use Java as its presentation layer, which is what Tim O’Reilly’s post talks about. That being said, I don’t disagree with you at all – there is space for java, just not the way Tim mentions it.

]]> By: Dig http://blog.webreakstuff.com/2006/05/ajax-java-and-a-huge-misunderstanding/comment-page-1/#comment-2004 Dig Thu, 25 May 2006 16:04:32 +0000 http://blog.webreakstuff.com/2006/05/ajax-java-and-a-huge-misunderstanding/#comment-2004 "the time for Java on the web is gone". Really? :-) It would be instructive if you could substantiate this. This is truly news for me and my many friends and contacts who develop Java based web applications. If you take a look around you'll find that Java web development is alive and kicking and will be for sometime. Oh, and don't get me wrong. I think it's great that new web-based technologies are springing up especially for those who feel most comfortable with dynamic languages. There is real renaissance going on right now and we're all part of it (Java, .NET, Rails, PHP, etc). “the time for Java on the web is gone”. Really? :-) It would be instructive if you could substantiate this.

This is truly news for me and my many friends and contacts who develop Java based web applications. If you take a look around you’ll find that Java web development is alive and kicking and will be for sometime.

Oh, and don’t get me wrong. I think it’s great that new web-based technologies are springing up especially for those who feel most comfortable with dynamic languages. There is real renaissance going on right now and we’re all part of it (Java, .NET, Rails, PHP, etc).

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